Trick or Treat

[eye_of_a_cat]

I have had SUCH AN ANNOYING couple of weeks at work, where we are a) trying to organise a big event while b) going through a hugely unsettling big structural shakeup that c) means everyone's worried about their jobs while d) we are also missing a lot of staff and e) aren't allowed to hire anyone until b) is sorted out. It's now at vaguely comedic levels. On top of this, both kids have been ill, and on top of that my mother-in-law is moving house and needs oh so much help with that.

On a related note, I have been part way through writing a trickortreatex recs post for ages - a fic exchange with a lot of spooky stories - and STILL HAVEN'T FINISHED, not least because I have still hardly read any of the ones I wanted to read due to ^ that. So most of that is still to come, but since we are now at the author reveals point already here are the two written for me, which I did get around to reading!

Moments of Transition, Moments of Revelation by cahn (Babylon 5, Delenn/Neroon, T) - is an absolutely wonderful, long, plotty, AU where Sheridan stays dead at Z'Ha'Dum and it's Delenn and Neroon with an arranged marriage to preserve political stability.

Superposition by kanadka (Babylon 5, Branmer, T) - a pivotal moment in Branmer's life, which is both complex worldbuilding backstory and also Branmer backstory specifically, and fits like an absolute jigsaw piece into canon without being the shape I would have expected at all.

(These two also make a wonderful set of the two things I always felt were missing in B5 fandom when I was really active in it about 15 years ago, which were Delenn/Neroon stories (I mean! that chemistry!) and anything about Branmer. And I am so so so pleased to see things like this being written now!)

And the ones I wrote:

Haunted in small ways (Babylon 5, G), for kalirush - Vir, Lennier, and a station full of ghosts.

Some say the world will end in fire (Babylon 5, M) for cahn - Delenn/Neroon, Warrior Caste festivals and political scheming.

And things that go bump in the night (Ghosts, G) for Small_Hobbit - how do you run a haunted house event in an actual haunted house?

Comments

[cahn]

That sounds like A LOT. I feel like a lot of weeks it's hard enough to get through the week just with trying to get regular work done and regular kid-sorting things done, and that is a lot more stressors!

Also also I loved your ToT B5 fics (I did guess that the other Vir & Lennier was by you, as you probably realized from my comment on selenak's post, though not until I'd thought about it a bit) and I also loved writing Delenn/Neroon for you so much :D <3 That chemistry is really something else! <3 (Plus which, their partnership does seem to work really well in canon, except for that pesky bit where Delenn doesn't tell him that she's going to stay in the Starfire Wheel -- I mean, of course she wouldn't, but my headcanon is that if they both somehow survived he would be Very Put Out at her.)

(And that is why your post a couple weeks back about stress leading to fanfic was so relatable! This was a very fun thing to be immersed in when work was being Irritating.)

As is probably inevitable (I think I always have this problem with thoughtful recips), I had a lot of moments where I really wanted to talk to you about it and/or get you to beta it, because I was like, eye_of_a_cat would definitely know how to fix this, or have Useful Thoughts about this piece of characterization or worldbuilding! And honestly I just kind of want to talk to you about Minbar in general and Neroon in particular. Of course now I can't remember what exactly -- well, I know that my worldbuilding in that turned out a lot different than yours! Which is cool, because (as you've said) it's fun to imagine different ways the Minbari worldbuilding can go, and I really like your versions, with the way that the Warrior Caste has its own rich separate rituals and festivals and ways of doing things. And with Neroon -- I kept having to fight the urge to make him way more reasonable than Delenn (it was SO CATHARTIC, I can't even tell you, to write this thing while watching S5) and may have overcompensated a bit -- not to the degree that it's overly OOC from canon, I don't think (S1-3 Neroon is pretty cranky)... But anyway I feel like you do this balance so well; I just really love how your Neroon and Delenn are such strong and clashing characters while still being able to, occasionally, concede a point to the other.

[eye_of_a_cat]

(And that is why your post a couple weeks back about stress leading to fanfic was so relatable! This was a very fun thing to be immersed in when work was being Irritating.)

I am finding it so very therapeutic at the moment! Work is, I hope, going to calm down from next week, which sounds a bit famous-last-words-ish but fingers crossed. This week was equally busy but better than the previous one in that I didn't actively feel like I was failing at it. And I have literally been writing down fic ideas in Google Docs on my phone on my train commute, just to get my head out of work mode!

ANYWAY I am sort of back in normal human functioning mode now, I think.

that pesky bit where Delenn doesn't tell him that she's going to stay in the Starfire Wheel -- I mean, of course she wouldn't

lol yes, and she also wouldn't see any conflict between "yes of course we're working together behind the scenes on a shared plan that relies both of us to have incredible levels of trust in each other" and still not telling him, I bet. In my (scrappy bits-and-pieces will probably never be finished but still I love it) AU, she doesn't tell him and he works it out and stops it - I will go and get it and post it on here :)

I had a lot of moments where I really wanted to talk to you about it

Ahahaha I know the feeling - I had to really fight the temptation to say something on here about the one I wrote for you, when I was trying to think through the backstory out loud. (I couldn't tell if I was getting early/pre-S1 Delenn feeling right, or whether I was letting later Delenn cloud how she canonically was earlier. I think it worked out ok?)

I really love Minbari worldbuilding in large part because we don't get all that much detail about how it works as a society, and there's lots of points where it seems to contradict itself - like JUST HOW does Lennier have Warrior caste relatives in the same clan/clan equivalent, just a few episodes after Sheridan makes a whole point about how any Religious and Warrior caste people talking to each other must obviously be on the Grey Council because otherwise they don't mix? How does this WORK? Hence I have this whole headcanon that there are the main castes and clans, and then there are ones from areas that were more geographically or culturally remote and got sort of bolted on to the system later and don't quite match up, and that's where he's from. (And is also why Delenn chose him as her aide, because he's grown up quite isolated from whatever's currently going on in Minbari society.)

But also! The idea that they've had space travel for over a thousand years (at least, if they were capable of fighting the Shadows a thousand years previously), I love imagining what that would be like. It ends up being a sort of futuristic Age of Sail in some of my stuff I think.

And also yes, the role of ritual! I meant to say re: your reply on the fic you wrote for me, I really found that point about just how much the actual words matter quite relatable - there was an incident in my own religion a couple of years ago where a priest had been baptising babies using a slightly incorrect version of the proper words (he said 'we' rather than 'I' I think), entirely unintentionally, and then his diocese announced that thousands of baptisms over many many years were therefore invalid and would have to be redone because of that. And it's the kind of thing that sounds absolutely barking mad to e.g. every non-religious person I heard comment on it, and I can simultaneously see their point and also think "but... it does matter..."

[cahn]

I suppose it's got to calm down one way or another, right? Anyway, yes, fingers crossed. And yay for normal human functioning mode!

lol yes, and she also wouldn't see any conflict between "yes of course we're working together behind the scenes on a shared plan that relies both of us to have incredible levels of trust in each other" and still not telling him, I bet.

ahahaha, of course she doesn't! (And, like, she's not 100% wrong, in the sense that it doesn't actually change that they are able to have that trust and execute the plan itself, but... BUT. UM.)

(I couldn't tell if I was getting early/pre-S1 Delenn feeling right, or whether I was letting later Delenn cloud how she canonically was earlier. I think it worked out ok?)

I think it worked out great! Though I'm the wrong person to ask because being on a first watch, I probably am having later Delenn cloud early Delenn a lot myself -- but I really liked what you did with her knowing -- and both courting and being apprehensive of -- that she has an important destiny.

I do have a headcanon that Delenn was considered quite attractive as a Minbari in S1, and that when she turned human, all the Minbari around her were kind of feeling a little sad about it. (Lennier, of course, deals with it by doubling down on his crush.) So I thought it was great when Neroon called her beautiful in your fic :D <3

like JUST HOW does Lennier have Warrior caste relatives in the same clan/clan equivalent, just a few episodes after Sheridan makes a whole point about how any Religious and Warrior caste people talking to each other must obviously be on the Grey Council because otherwise they don't mix? How does this WORK?

Heh, this was before I got Super Invested in Minbar so this just flew over my head. (It also, now that you say this, flew over my head in your Lennier & Vir fic -- I was sort of like, why does Lennier have a cousin who went on the transports, did she switch castes? -- but now I love that part even more.) I love your headcanon though :D

But also! The idea that they've had space travel for over a thousand years

Yes! It's interesting because in selenak's rewatch she talked a lot about how the Minbari are basically the equivalent of Tolkien's Elves in the sense that they have a much older and more advanced civilization. But also presumably a more stagnant one, since they haven't progressed all that much since then... I never know quite what to do with that on a macro level. (Also I don't quite know what to do with the Minbari on one hand having a lot of selfless ideals about service and so on, and on the other hand clearly not really being into self-awareness or, say, relationship therapy even though in theory they're a thousand years advanced from us :P I have a headcanon that a lot of Minbari rituals kind of take the place of that -- that the reason why Minbari relationships are so ringed about with rituals is not to make Sheridan's life more difficult (even if that's the Doylistic reason), but because it's sort of scaffolding having actual discussions about stuff like "so, let's talk about what works for you sexually" and "so... let's have that deep conversation that you wouldn't have told me about otherwise.")

But also there's the more fine-grained ideas contained in a thousand years of space travel, which I think is where both of our interests are, where a thousand years of space travel is more than enough time for all kinds of traditions and rituals and even legends to grow up about the space travel itself, which is really neat. (I absolutely love the idea in your longfic about the Warrior Caste traditionally parading their infants aboard their ships!)

And it's the kind of thing that sounds absolutely barking mad to e.g. every non-religious person I heard comment on it, and I can simultaneously see their point and also think "but... it does matter..."

*nods* I didn't want to presume on other religions since I don't really necessarily know how they navigate that kind of thing (although now that I think about it, I used to be a section leader for a Catholic church choir years ago -- long story -- and I was there when they changed the words of the mass to "...and with your spirit," etc., which was a Thing), but yes! I see how it does matter and why those baptisms would need to be redone, and I also see why it seems mad to redo it! Especially if one hasn't been brought up in that particular viewpoint, so to speak.

(In Delenn and Neroon's case in the fic, I think they probably go round a couple more times on this and are unable to agree -- Neroon continues to think it is rather silly but okay, Religious Caste Is Like That, and Delenn continues to think it is important and that Neroon isn't getting it, but okay, Warrior Caste Is Like That, and then they cuddle in a highly deniable way and she ends up falling asleep on him.)

(My husband and I are also of different religions, and this often happens to us, not with the words thing specifically (where I think we agree, mostly), but e.g. my religion has strict "ward boundaries" where you have to go to the ward (congregation) delineated by where you live, and he thinks this is very silly, whereas I think there are good reasons for it! But we basically agree to disagree about these kinds of things :) )

[eye_of_a_cat]

(Sorry for the very late reply! Work has... not calmed down.)

Oh now you have finished the series I also wanted to say that I do have post-S5 Lennier fic! Sort of. Purity of Purpose and Missing.

when she turned human, all the Minbari around her were kind of feeling a little sad about it. (Lennier, of course, deals with it by doubling down on his crush.)

I love this!

the Minbari are basically the equivalent of Tolkien's Elves in the sense that they have a much older and more advanced civilization.

They are basically space-elves! And also like Tolkien elves in that they come across as more noble and spiritual while at the same time having a backstory that is surprisingly violent and awful that they don't like to get into much.

I have a headcanon that a lot of Minbari rituals kind of take the place of that -- that the reason why Minbari relationships are so ringed about with rituals is not to make Sheridan's life more difficult (even if that's the Doylistic reason), but because it's sort of scaffolding having actual discussions

Yes, I could see it working like this! And this being a fairly sensible approach really, on that level, although I also like the idea that what Delenn tells Sheridan is maybe not what it would look like from within Minbari society if you weren't having to make a point out of Doing It Properly so that your family don't ostracise you for marrying a non-Minbari. (Also clearly there are ways to get out of having some fairly important conversations, because communication never seems like a HUGE part of their marriage...)

(In Delenn and Neroon's case in the fic, I think they probably go round a couple more times on this and are unable to agree -- Neroon continues to think it is rather silly but okay, Religious Caste Is Like That, and Delenn continues to think it is important and that Neroon isn't getting it, but okay, Warrior Caste Is Like That, and then they cuddle in a highly deniable way and she ends up falling asleep on him.)

haha I can 100% see this!

I was there when they changed the words of the mass to "...and with your spirit," etc., which was a Thing

I am Catholic and have flubbed this one in front of the entire congregation at one point, oooooooops! I mean it was fine but, whyyyyyyy when everyone was looking at me. argh.

My husband is not Catholic and we got married in a non-Catholic ceremony when I wasn't that observant, and then had to get re-sort-of-married (convalidation) in a Catholic church to Catholic-ise it when I went back. And it was a really hard thing to explain the purpose of to him as he was coming from such a different perspective on it.

"No, the church does know I'm married, they just don't think it count as MARRIED married unless we stand in the right place and say the right things."
"????"
"just... humour me please. Also um, does your mum still have your baptism certificate? I need that too."

All credit to him for agreeing to this and being okay with it, because I don't think I was setting out a very convincing case!

[cahn]

ahhhhh yay for Lennier fic! I love these! I will get around to writing comments at some point!

although I also like the idea that what Delenn tells Sheridan is maybe not what it would look like from within Minbari society if you weren't having to make a point out of Doing It Properly so that your family don't ostracise you for marrying a non-Minbari.

Oh, that's a very cool idea as well! (Which, really, would make sense of that whole "40 rituals" (or however many it was) thing. Surely no one really does that many?)

And in general I rather like the idea that what Delenn tells Sheridan is not necessarily what it looks like to other Minbari, for what could be a myriad of reasons (like, in my fic, Neroon going "uh, no, we're not doing three nights, wtf").

(Also clearly there are ways to get out of having some fairly important conversations, because communication never seems like a HUGE part of their marriage...)

Oh, for sure (and this is one of my biggest frustrations with Sheridan/Delenn). But I think that whatever the intent of a ritual, it can certainly become something quite different in a situation where only one of the characters knows what is going on, and she may have her own agenda... as opposed to where both characters are in the culture and know all the unspoken rules around the ritual, and when the other party may or may not be breaking them.

I am Catholic and have flubbed this one in front of the entire congregation at one point, oooooooops!

Oh nooooo that is basically my nightmare. I mean, I'm glad it was OK!

My husband is not Catholic and we got married in a non-Catholic ceremony when I wasn't that observant, and then had to get re-sort-of-married (convalidation) in a Catholic church to Catholic-ise it when I went back. And it was a really hard thing to explain the purpose of to him as he was coming from such a different perspective on it.

Oh wow. Yeah, I can see how that would be quite difficult. My church (Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints) has something a bit like that, in that the MARRIAGE marriages are done specially, but it's also the case that those special marriages have to be done between two members, so it was clearly impossible and I never had to talk my husband into anything (I guess not counting the highly dramatic breakup we had because of differing religions, followed by the somewhat less dramatic getting back together where we decided we could live with it), and we got married in his (Lutheran) church.

[eye_of_a_cat]

So this is the very draft-y bit of my AU after the Starfire Wheel, from Neroon's POV. (This is after things went differently at the end of S3, so Delenn has been back on Minbar the whole time since then, but the scheme with Neroon was about the same as it played out in canon.) I might have posted this before? not sure!

----

She was, as he expected, furious. And not the kind of anger he was used to from her, where she went quiet and cold and let him think he had achieved something while developing yet another way to undermine him in the future. No, this was white-hot unrestrained anger - he had outmanoeuvred her and she knew it. And he would be lying if he pretended that wasn’t at all satisfying.

“You had no right,” she spat. “You had no right. We made an agreement.”

“And that agreement was met. Shakiri stepped out of the circle, and then so did you. Everything went as we planned. Really, Delenn, I thought you’d be happy.”

Somewhat petty. But it had been a very long and very awful few weeks, and she wasn’t helping.

She turned away from him so he could no longer see her face. “We did not agree you would endanger Lennier.”

“I didn’t endanger him. He stepped into the circle of his own will.“

“Because you did! Because you did as Shakiri’s second, you knew he would have to follow. I told you how much he meant to me and you used that against me.”

“He’s fine, is he not?”

“He was injured.”

“Superficial burns. It’s not my fault that you don’t wear gloves.” All right, enough. “He would only have been in danger if you weren’t planning to leave the circle. But as you were of course planning to do that, as we had agreed, then all was well. Wasn’t it?”

No answer, and he knew he had her.

She sat down cross-legged and stared at a space of nothing. It would have been disorienting once; but now he remembered Branmer doing the same, and recognised it as a battle for self-control, an attempt to rein in whatever fury or sorrow or despair she didn’t want to set free. “It was not your concern,” she said. “I did what we agreed. I gave you your surrender. What happened after that -“

“Would have unbalanced us once again. What do you think you would have achieved, sacrificing yourself like that? My caste would have demanded their right to form the new Council since you forfeited yours. And your caste would have held you up as victorious. We would have had a Warrior council ruling over a furious resentful Religious caste determined to fight on in your name. You’re very good at surrendering, Delenn, but you never quite seem to lose.”

“I had left instructions with Lennier,” she said, her gaze still fixed on a candle flame that only she could see.

“For what? For others to carry out after you left us, again? As you’ve done for year after year after year. You come back here, you create chaos, and then you leave us to deal with the aftermath while you go back to hide on your station.”

“Hide?” she snarled.

“With your fleet, your army -“

“I would not have needed any of them if the Warrior caste had agreed to fight! The Shadows are back, our galaxy is falling into chaos, all Valen’s warnings have come to reality in our lifetimes, we have never needed the Warrior caste so much and where were you?”

You, his caste, or you, himself, these were different. But were they, so much? Where had he been? I didn’t oppose you building the White Star fleet, although I made sure you wouldn’t get any crew. I did what I could - some of what I could - to keep the Star Riders out of the recent violence here. I didn’t trust you. I didn’t believe you. You let this happen, yes, but so did I.

“They’ll fight now,” he said. “Under my command, they will, I swear it. Even the Wind Swords. Work with me.“ But she had gone back to staring into space. “Delenn. I did mean what I said to you before. Whatever lies ahead of us, it’s right that we should both have a part in it.” Nothing. Nothing, and he remembered the jarring emptiness he’d seen in her before after she’d returned from the station. “Delenn. We only have until morning to decide some sort of plan. We can’t fight the Shadows if things fall apart here. I can’t do this alone. Please.”

“And what do you suggest, Shai Alyt?” Still staring ahead of her, as if he was not even in the room at all, only a prickle of conscience whispering in her ear. “Stand before our world and promise we can work together?”

“Not exactly,” he said. “I have a suggestion. It’s - not ideal. But it’s better than burning to ashes in starfire.”

[cahn]

If had you posted this before I haven't seen it! I love it, of course <3 (seriously, I love this AU, I suppose completely unsurprisingly :D and I love whatever bits and pieces you end up posting, it doesn't have to be finished)

I'm not entirely sure I have all the context -- Neroon stops it by going into the Starfire Wheel like in canon, but Lennier also does, but because he realizes what's going to happen beforehand, everyone ends up surviving? (I'm actually a little surprised that he's not angrier at her for deceiving him about what she was doing in the Starfire Wheel -- maybe this is just because I'm a Neroon stan, but I feel like he's the one who has the right to be angry here, not her... though maybe that's part of the point. But then also, see my note on the end, I then realized Delenn is in a non-canon situation and that's probably affecting some of her reactions as well, and Neroon can see that even if he doesn't know exactly what's going on with her.)

he had outmanoeuvred her and she knew it. And he would be lying if he pretended that wasn’t at all satisfying.

HAHAHAHA well Neroon at least you're self-aware about this. I would also be lying if I pretended it wasn't a bit satisfying to me

“And that agreement was met. Shakiri stepped out of the circle, and then so did you. Everything went as we planned. Really, Delenn, I thought you’d be happy.”

Somewhat petty. But it had been a very long and very awful few weeks, and she wasn’t helping.

ahhhhhh this is great

I also love that he calls her out on her sacrifice and is like "yeah, that was... kind of stupid politically!" Which is not something that occurred to me but also something she OUGHT to be called out about! But also that he does understand his own culpability in everything that's happening.

Nothing. Nothing, and he remembered the jarring emptiness he’d seen in her before after she’d returned from the station. “Delenn. We only have until morning to decide some sort of plan. We can’t fight the Shadows if things fall apart here. I can’t do this alone. Please.”

“And what do you suggest, Shai Alyt?” Still staring ahead of her, as if he was not even in the room at all, only a prickle of conscience whispering in her ear. “Stand before our world and promise we can work together?”

“Not exactly,” he said. “I have a suggestion. It’s - not ideal. But it’s better than burning to ashes in starfire.”

AHHHHH
I love the reminder that Delenn is under a lot of personal stressors in this AU that she isn't in canon, and that Neroon's willing to humble himself a bit to ask for Delenn's help, and realizes he can't in fact do it alone. (And also I'm imagining what Delenn thinks of his suggestion and, lol, wow, she is going to freak out, isn't she.)