eye_of_a_cat (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
eye_of_a_cat) wrote2005-01-04 01:40 am
eye_of_a_cat) wrote2005-01-04 01:40 am
Entry tags:
B5 thoughts
...and what have I done to my back? Ow. Ow. Who knew lounging about the house all week could be so hazardous to your health?
Anyway, I've been rewatching some B5 to reward myself for all the work I did in... er, December, so this excuse may be coming to the end of its lifespan. (Also maybe for long-overdue-epic-that-hates-being-written related reasons, possibly.) Some thoughts on 'In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum' and 'Atonement', then.
ItSoZ is my favourite Sheridan episode ever. Granted, it doesn't have a lot of competition, but that doesn't mean I love it any less. This is why:
'You seem to have forgotten something, Mr Morden. Earth Central thinks you're dead. Until I send them my report, you're still dead. That means you've got no rights, no legal recourse, no-one to miss you if you... don't turn up. [...] If necessary you will sit here for the next hour, the next day, the next week, the next month, the next year, the next five hundred years. But you will not leave until I know the truth.'
Sheridan is just the same here as he is in the rest of the series, determined and quite willing to break regulations if it's for a good cause. And there's no doubt it is a good cause, since there's no question that Morden is bad, or that he knows a lot more than he's saying. Here, though, Sheridan's actions are not shown as a good and justifiable thing to do. He's obsessive and threatening and dangerous, and even Garibaldi challenges him on the necessity of having lines that you just can't cross. And he knows what he's doing and why it's wrong, but it's connected to Anna, and so he just doesn't care. It makes you wonder what their marriage was like.
Seeing this as a precursor to Sheridan's actions post-going to Z'ha'dum, and breaking away from Earth (I do think he was justified in that case, but no decision that huge is without its perfectly reasonable criticisms that need to be answered, and he shouldn't have escaped them) was horribly sad, too. Garibaldi stands up to him in exactly the same way, including handing over his resignation because he refuses to be party to what's happening. At the end of the episode, Garibaldi says "Next time, will you listen to me?", and Sheridan says "There won't be a next time."
I loved how completely Sheridan was obsessed with Anna this early in the series. Morden hasn't actually done anything on the station that can be proven, but he isn't even being locked up because of the things he's done that can't be, since Sheridan doesn't know about them. Sheridan just knows that he's alive and Anna isn't. I don't think he believes Morden killed Anna, although he mentions it as a possibility, and obviously he believes Morden's got to know something about what happened that Sheridan doesn't - but I think one of the most telling moments in the episode was Sheridan throwing down a photo of Anna when Morden suggests charging him with something, and that Morden's crime here, as Sheridan sees it, is surviving the Icarus. Everything Sheridan does at this point is motivated by Anna: if there's a chance she's alive, then she's on Z'ha'dum, and he'll go. If she's dead, then the Shadows killed her, and he wants Kosh to teach him how to fight them. When Delenn and Kosh tell him the history of the Shadows, after Kosh plays out that Vorlon reconstruction of events (I doubt the Vorlons had video cameras there, somehow), his first word is 'Anna'. Like he says himself earlier in the episode, without Anna, 'nothing else means one damn.'
In retrospect, Delenn very obviously isn't telling him the truth when she says that those who wouldn't serve the Shadows were killed. Those who wouldn't serve the Shadows were put into Shadow ships and ended up serving the Shadows anyway, Anna included. I wonder how much of her was left after that, though - if her body was still there, and all her memories were intact, wouldn't that make her a lot closer to being the same person she was before that Sheridan allows for after going to Z'ha'dum? Not that I could really blame him for wanting to think she wasn't, given that he'd just killed her. But still. (Granted, she's working for the Shadows, but I'm sure that wouldn't have taken too much mind-meddling to accomplish if the Shadows want to make themselves look like The Good Guys - just show everything bad the Vorlons have ever done, then everything bad the Minbari have ever done, then mention that this Minbari woman working with the Vorlons is getting awfully close to your husband, then point in the right direction.)
Seeing Morden get annoyed was a nice change, too. He actually looks shocked for a second when Sheridan pushes him back into his chair and says he's not leaving, and he is clearly not happy when Vir tells him what he wants. Obviously that was worth a try, but I don't think he was holding out any high hopes that what Vir wanted would be something Shadow-compatible. Still, even Morden doesn't like having his own death described quite so graphically. (It must have been tough for Vir to demand Morden's release, though. I wonder if he was expecting Sheridan to notice a connection between Londo's recent rise in power and Londo wanting Morden free? Not that it would have helped in the end.) I think Delenn was completely wrong, though, when she said that Morden would talk sooner or later if Sheridan kept trying. Wouldn't the Shadows just get him out if he seemed about to talk? But I doubt he would have talked anyway, since he's not their servant. He's their associate. He believes completely in what he's doing, and he isn't about to ruin things for himself.
Since Morden is clearly not stupid, I don't think he believed the it-was-all-a-misunderstanding line. If the Shadows didn't either, then don't they suspect that Sheridan knows about them by now? And if they do, then why don't they just move straight away, the way Delenn and Kosh are afraid of? It doesn't seem like they know, though. Which means I have no idea what to make of Morden's smugly evil smile straight into the camera at the end. Hm.
The B-plot was the Ministry of Peace thing, about which I have little to say except that it would be nice if the suave-and-polite-yet-obviously-evil type of bad guys (Morden excepted) could occasionally not be English.
----
"I am descended from Valen" is not a reason for marrying Sheridan. "I am descended from Valen, and will not hesitate to tell all of Minbar this" is a reason for why your clan can't stop you marrying Sheridan. (Also, it's not a good reason for Dukhat appointing her to the Grey Council - how does sharing a piece of Valen's DNA make you qualified to lead your planet? But that's another grumble.) This seems like one of the few points in the series when we're supposed to doubt the overarching wonderfulness of the canon OTP - the Valen thing isn't convincing as a reason, and Delenn's clan places a lot of emphasis on how she might have reasons she doesn't know about, and as![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
selenakpointed out a while ago, if we're supposed to disagree with the idea that she's marrying Sheridan in large part because of how guilty she feels about the war, then why call the episode 'Atonement'? So, I don't think Delenn's stated reason of 'Because I love him' is a good one. It's true, but it's sort of missing the point - she might as well have said 'Because we're engaged'. Her clan wanted to know why.
(Yes, admittedly, sometimes there isn't a 'why', but most of the time there is. They clearly didn't fall in love despite their intentions, or at least she didn't - is there any point in Season 2 where it doesn't look like she's planning the whole thing? - and besides, wonderful classic romantic love stories usually aren't. Romeo and Juliet is about what happens when you think love's such a wonderful thing it can overcome everything. Wuthering Heights is about what happens when you think someone's the other half of your soul. Stories that believe in the 'We're in love because we're in love, and isn't everything all fluffy wonderful puppies and kittens and sunshine?' are boring for a reason, IMHO.)
I also don't believe her when she said that she'd abide by her clan's decision if they ordered her to stay. It might be nice for creating some superficial shippery angst, but given everything else Delenn's ever done, I don't buy it as plausible for a second. The most reasonable explanation I've heard is that she was fully prepared to ignore them if they told her to stay, but wanted to at least try to have their approval.
But then, if she isn't worried about having to stay behind on Minbar, that can't explain why she's so upset around Sheridan in her scenes back on B5. So. Since she knows what she's being called back to Minbar for, and since she tells Lennier that he might see things which would change his opinion of her, she must already know that whatever happens will mean being reminded of her role in the war. And if she's thinking about that when she's on the station, it would make sense that she's acting differently around Sheridan. Being upset, though, and touching his face like that... it's as if only his life was ever in danger. Which, I suppose, is what she's hoping to achieve by their entire relationship - making his forgiveness the same thing as his entire people's forgiveness.
Or maybe she was close to telling him. One of the first things Callenn says is that if he was in her place, he would tell Sheridan the truth (in context, presumably about her not being allowed to return to Babylon 5, but it's not difficult to see it as a wider thing). It can't be easy to live with him and know that there's this terrible thing he doesn't know about her, and I wonder how close she ever came to telling him. It also puzzles me that he never asks, given how obsessively curious he can be about other things - I suppose he must have worked out enough to know that she was someone important on Minbar at the time of the war, and then realised he loved her too much to let himself know if she'd done anything terrible. I don't know if he'd be able to forgive her.
It's not really explained what the Dreaming is, which may well be a good thing for technobabble-related reasons. Presumably the liquid they drink must have something to do with it, but if it's some sort of drug-induced trance, then how come the other people present can see it as well? Maybe the Whisper Gallery has some kind of power to display what someone's thinking. In that case, though, I wonder why there always has to be two people in the Dreaming - so the first one can't lie about what they saw? Or so they can't escape someone else seeing their secrets?
It's interesting that she only really admits her responsibility once, to Lennier. Even her own mind tries to excuse her "No mercy!" order, by showing her scenes of herself telling another Satai that the war was a mistake. And the rest of the Minbari aren't much better - one of them says that the war can't be stopped because it's taken on a life of its own, which is a handy way of making it everyone's war but no-one's fault. It's not until Lennier tries to tell her she wasn't responsible that she says, no, it was my order.
Although that's all before hearing what Dukhat said to her, and after that she becomes completely confident again. Maybe she really believes that she's found her reason. It does make me wish she wasn't quite so good at surrounding herself with characters who never quite dared to question her, though. Atonement needed more Neroon.
Anyway, I've been rewatching some B5 to reward myself for all the work I did in... er, December, so this excuse may be coming to the end of its lifespan. (Also maybe for long-overdue-epic-that-hates-being-written related reasons, possibly.) Some thoughts on 'In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum' and 'Atonement', then.
ItSoZ is my favourite Sheridan episode ever. Granted, it doesn't have a lot of competition, but that doesn't mean I love it any less. This is why:
'You seem to have forgotten something, Mr Morden. Earth Central thinks you're dead. Until I send them my report, you're still dead. That means you've got no rights, no legal recourse, no-one to miss you if you... don't turn up. [...] If necessary you will sit here for the next hour, the next day, the next week, the next month, the next year, the next five hundred years. But you will not leave until I know the truth.'
Sheridan is just the same here as he is in the rest of the series, determined and quite willing to break regulations if it's for a good cause. And there's no doubt it is a good cause, since there's no question that Morden is bad, or that he knows a lot more than he's saying. Here, though, Sheridan's actions are not shown as a good and justifiable thing to do. He's obsessive and threatening and dangerous, and even Garibaldi challenges him on the necessity of having lines that you just can't cross. And he knows what he's doing and why it's wrong, but it's connected to Anna, and so he just doesn't care. It makes you wonder what their marriage was like.
Seeing this as a precursor to Sheridan's actions post-going to Z'ha'dum, and breaking away from Earth (I do think he was justified in that case, but no decision that huge is without its perfectly reasonable criticisms that need to be answered, and he shouldn't have escaped them) was horribly sad, too. Garibaldi stands up to him in exactly the same way, including handing over his resignation because he refuses to be party to what's happening. At the end of the episode, Garibaldi says "Next time, will you listen to me?", and Sheridan says "There won't be a next time."
I loved how completely Sheridan was obsessed with Anna this early in the series. Morden hasn't actually done anything on the station that can be proven, but he isn't even being locked up because of the things he's done that can't be, since Sheridan doesn't know about them. Sheridan just knows that he's alive and Anna isn't. I don't think he believes Morden killed Anna, although he mentions it as a possibility, and obviously he believes Morden's got to know something about what happened that Sheridan doesn't - but I think one of the most telling moments in the episode was Sheridan throwing down a photo of Anna when Morden suggests charging him with something, and that Morden's crime here, as Sheridan sees it, is surviving the Icarus. Everything Sheridan does at this point is motivated by Anna: if there's a chance she's alive, then she's on Z'ha'dum, and he'll go. If she's dead, then the Shadows killed her, and he wants Kosh to teach him how to fight them. When Delenn and Kosh tell him the history of the Shadows, after Kosh plays out that Vorlon reconstruction of events (I doubt the Vorlons had video cameras there, somehow), his first word is 'Anna'. Like he says himself earlier in the episode, without Anna, 'nothing else means one damn.'
In retrospect, Delenn very obviously isn't telling him the truth when she says that those who wouldn't serve the Shadows were killed. Those who wouldn't serve the Shadows were put into Shadow ships and ended up serving the Shadows anyway, Anna included. I wonder how much of her was left after that, though - if her body was still there, and all her memories were intact, wouldn't that make her a lot closer to being the same person she was before that Sheridan allows for after going to Z'ha'dum? Not that I could really blame him for wanting to think she wasn't, given that he'd just killed her. But still. (Granted, she's working for the Shadows, but I'm sure that wouldn't have taken too much mind-meddling to accomplish if the Shadows want to make themselves look like The Good Guys - just show everything bad the Vorlons have ever done, then everything bad the Minbari have ever done, then mention that this Minbari woman working with the Vorlons is getting awfully close to your husband, then point in the right direction.)
Seeing Morden get annoyed was a nice change, too. He actually looks shocked for a second when Sheridan pushes him back into his chair and says he's not leaving, and he is clearly not happy when Vir tells him what he wants. Obviously that was worth a try, but I don't think he was holding out any high hopes that what Vir wanted would be something Shadow-compatible. Still, even Morden doesn't like having his own death described quite so graphically. (It must have been tough for Vir to demand Morden's release, though. I wonder if he was expecting Sheridan to notice a connection between Londo's recent rise in power and Londo wanting Morden free? Not that it would have helped in the end.) I think Delenn was completely wrong, though, when she said that Morden would talk sooner or later if Sheridan kept trying. Wouldn't the Shadows just get him out if he seemed about to talk? But I doubt he would have talked anyway, since he's not their servant. He's their associate. He believes completely in what he's doing, and he isn't about to ruin things for himself.
Since Morden is clearly not stupid, I don't think he believed the it-was-all-a-misunderstanding line. If the Shadows didn't either, then don't they suspect that Sheridan knows about them by now? And if they do, then why don't they just move straight away, the way Delenn and Kosh are afraid of? It doesn't seem like they know, though. Which means I have no idea what to make of Morden's smugly evil smile straight into the camera at the end. Hm.
The B-plot was the Ministry of Peace thing, about which I have little to say except that it would be nice if the suave-and-polite-yet-obviously-evil type of bad guys (Morden excepted) could occasionally not be English.
----
"I am descended from Valen" is not a reason for marrying Sheridan. "I am descended from Valen, and will not hesitate to tell all of Minbar this" is a reason for why your clan can't stop you marrying Sheridan. (Also, it's not a good reason for Dukhat appointing her to the Grey Council - how does sharing a piece of Valen's DNA make you qualified to lead your planet? But that's another grumble.) This seems like one of the few points in the series when we're supposed to doubt the overarching wonderfulness of the canon OTP - the Valen thing isn't convincing as a reason, and Delenn's clan places a lot of emphasis on how she might have reasons she doesn't know about, and as
selenakpointed out a while ago, if we're supposed to disagree with the idea that she's marrying Sheridan in large part because of how guilty she feels about the war, then why call the episode 'Atonement'? So, I don't think Delenn's stated reason of 'Because I love him' is a good one. It's true, but it's sort of missing the point - she might as well have said 'Because we're engaged'. Her clan wanted to know why. (Yes, admittedly, sometimes there isn't a 'why', but most of the time there is. They clearly didn't fall in love despite their intentions, or at least she didn't - is there any point in Season 2 where it doesn't look like she's planning the whole thing? - and besides, wonderful classic romantic love stories usually aren't. Romeo and Juliet is about what happens when you think love's such a wonderful thing it can overcome everything. Wuthering Heights is about what happens when you think someone's the other half of your soul. Stories that believe in the 'We're in love because we're in love, and isn't everything all fluffy wonderful puppies and kittens and sunshine?' are boring for a reason, IMHO.)
I also don't believe her when she said that she'd abide by her clan's decision if they ordered her to stay. It might be nice for creating some superficial shippery angst, but given everything else Delenn's ever done, I don't buy it as plausible for a second. The most reasonable explanation I've heard is that she was fully prepared to ignore them if they told her to stay, but wanted to at least try to have their approval.
But then, if she isn't worried about having to stay behind on Minbar, that can't explain why she's so upset around Sheridan in her scenes back on B5. So. Since she knows what she's being called back to Minbar for, and since she tells Lennier that he might see things which would change his opinion of her, she must already know that whatever happens will mean being reminded of her role in the war. And if she's thinking about that when she's on the station, it would make sense that she's acting differently around Sheridan. Being upset, though, and touching his face like that... it's as if only his life was ever in danger. Which, I suppose, is what she's hoping to achieve by their entire relationship - making his forgiveness the same thing as his entire people's forgiveness.
Or maybe she was close to telling him. One of the first things Callenn says is that if he was in her place, he would tell Sheridan the truth (in context, presumably about her not being allowed to return to Babylon 5, but it's not difficult to see it as a wider thing). It can't be easy to live with him and know that there's this terrible thing he doesn't know about her, and I wonder how close she ever came to telling him. It also puzzles me that he never asks, given how obsessively curious he can be about other things - I suppose he must have worked out enough to know that she was someone important on Minbar at the time of the war, and then realised he loved her too much to let himself know if she'd done anything terrible. I don't know if he'd be able to forgive her.
It's not really explained what the Dreaming is, which may well be a good thing for technobabble-related reasons. Presumably the liquid they drink must have something to do with it, but if it's some sort of drug-induced trance, then how come the other people present can see it as well? Maybe the Whisper Gallery has some kind of power to display what someone's thinking. In that case, though, I wonder why there always has to be two people in the Dreaming - so the first one can't lie about what they saw? Or so they can't escape someone else seeing their secrets?
It's interesting that she only really admits her responsibility once, to Lennier. Even her own mind tries to excuse her "No mercy!" order, by showing her scenes of herself telling another Satai that the war was a mistake. And the rest of the Minbari aren't much better - one of them says that the war can't be stopped because it's taken on a life of its own, which is a handy way of making it everyone's war but no-one's fault. It's not until Lennier tries to tell her she wasn't responsible that she says, no, it was my order.
Although that's all before hearing what Dukhat said to her, and after that she becomes completely confident again. Maybe she really believes that she's found her reason. It does make me wish she wasn't quite so good at surrounding herself with characters who never quite dared to question her, though. Atonement needed more Neroon.
(I)
Same here, for much the same reasons.
Here, though, Sheridan's actions are not shown as a good and justifiable thing to do.
No, and I'm hard pressed to think of parallels in other shows. It's also a very contemporary topic. Because Morden is a certified villain, and not an innocent, but the episode makes it clear - both through Garibaldi and Ivanova - that this still doesn't mean Sheridan can can abuse his own power by going Guantanamo on him.
I loved how completely Sheridan was obsessed with Anna this early in the series.
When rewatching the show, I was struck by the "my wife and my career" line, because obviously these are the two things he has to abandon in the course of his personal arc. B5 is very much about change, and Sheridan has to leave the two things he used to define himself behind - the EarthForce career officer, and Anna's husband. Which is why I think his personal arc ends at Z'ha'dum, which is the culmination of these developments.
I wonder how much of her was left after that, though - if her body was still there, and all her memories were intact, wouldn't that make her a lot closer to being the same person she was before that Sheridan allows for after going to Z'ha'dum?
Here we get into "how much do memories define a person" territory, which two other favourite shows of mine have examined beautifully. On B5, you have the concept of the death of personality via memory wipe and the implant of a new one, which I always found deeply disturbing yet fascinating. In Passing through Gethsemane, Edward and Charles are clearly two distinct personalities, both real, and yet they share the same body, and Edward is an artificial creation made to atone for Charles' crimes. Carolyn in Ship of Tears seems to be the same person Bester fell in love with, despite the implants and the drive to merge with machines, but then Carolyn was never actually plugged in a Shadow vessel.
(Sheridan draws an interesting parallel between Anna and Carolyn, in one of the few post-Z'ha'Dum Anna references, when talking to Bester in Rising Star, when he says he knows what it is to love someone and to lose her only to find her again and lose her once more. He does not make the distinction of this not having really been Anna then, but of course he's arguing with someone and pressed for time.)
Seeing Morden get annoyed was a nice change, too. He actually looks shocked for a second when Sheridan pushes him back into his chair and says he's not leaving, and he is clearly not happy when Vir tells him what he wants.
I think the only other time whe see Morden lose his cool - but then spectacularly - is when Londo blows up the island Selini.
Re: (I)
Yeah, isn't it just...
I'm kind of glad this was written before Guantanamo, so it can make its point as a more general condemnation without being forever linked to just one incident (and my own government's done that kind of thing before, and not even all that long ago). But rewatching it while all this is going on is eerily appropriate, right down to the 'and you don't technically exist according to the laws set up for this kind of situation, so you're not getting a trial' points.
Which is why I think his personal arc ends at Z'ha'dum, which is the culmination of these developments.
*nods* Although I think there's a great deal of missed opportunity re: Anna, and how Sheridan deals with (effectively) killing her. As it's written, he just seems to forget all about it after Z'ha'dum, except for that one moment you mentioned in Rising Star. In that case it could just be a Sheridan thing - he deals with issues he knows he can't face by doing something big, drawing a line under it and then pretending it's all over, which is probably the same reason he doesn't want to know what Delenn did in the war.
Here we get into "how much do memories define a person" territory, which two other favourite shows of mine have examined beautifully.
Have you seen Memento? I had a great discussion about memories and personality after watching that film at university a few years ago, where I was the only one arguing that you can still have a personality without any memories (or any ability to have memories, in that case). I'm not sure whether I still believe that - it bothered me hugely at the time that personality could be defined by something so fleeting, and I'd just spent a year's holidays working in a nursing home where a lot of the residents had severe dementia and therefore very few memories left. (This episode also has the exchange between Franklin and Ivanova about seeing God in the eyes of the dying, which reminded me of doing that kind of work too. I'm not sure Franklin's right, but I've seen some odd things.)
With Anna, it strikes me that the Shadows wouldn't send her to Sheridan unless she was unchanged to a pretty large degree. Later on he says he just knew it wasn't her, but I don't think he's so sure back on the station, given how angry he gets with Delenn and the way he can't even completely rule out that she's genuine when he says it's 'almost certainly a trap'. Again, that might be Sheridan - he sees things as very black and white, so if Anna's been altered to the degree where she'd serve the Shadows, then obviously she's not Anna any more. Plus, he needs to be able to live with himself.
I think the only other time whe see Morden lose his cool - but then spectacularly - is when Londo blows up the island Selini.
That's my favourite Morden scene. Even Londo getting his guards to kill Morden's Shadows doesn't quite do it - it's the knowledge that Londo has just completely ruined all his plans, and it's a wonderful reversal of that also-supposedly-rhetorical "Why don't you eliminate the entire Narn homeworld, while you're at it?" line early on in their relationship.
Re: (I)
Or why he never talks about his torture. It seems to be the way he deals with deeply traumatic events, yes.
No, I haven't seen Memento. Have you watched Blake's 7? Because the entire Anna storyline is an (admitted) homage. Lost beloved named Anna presumed to have been killed by main enemy turns out to work for main enemy and to be alive and get killed by the hero in the end. Except that Avon's Anna didn't get brainwashed; it was her decision. Avon killing her in a way sets up the gory finale, but then Avon and Sheridan are very unlike each other in personality.
That's my favourite Morden scene. Even Londo getting his guards to kill Morden's Shadows doesn't quite do it - it's the knowledge that Londo has just completely ruined all his plans, and it's a wonderful reversal of that also-supposedly-rhetorical "Why don't you eliminate the entire Narn homeworld, while you're at it?" line early on in their relationship.
Ooooh, I never thought of that last one, but you're absolutely right. And this scene is a firm favourite with me as well. Though of course poor Londo does pay terribly for it. BTW, Morden has always been my candidate for "do not kill the one who is already dead". Not that Londo had much choice (for a change) in the matter, because the Vorlons were coming, and he couldn't know Sheridan would stop them at the last minute. But blowing up Selini and killing Morden ensured the Drakh would target him personally for revenge.
About Sheridan not trying to get rid of Londo: yeah, that is puzzling. I suppose Londo could have done just as much damage anywhere else, but surely it would have reduced the risk to the station and all the lives Sheridan's responsible for if he was elsewhere.
I suppose you could fanwank it and say that Sheridan doesn't want to piss off the Centauri Republic, because given the later's treaty with Earth they could in theory have helped Clark trying to conquer/get back B5, instead of remaining neutral in season 3. (The neutrality didn't change until in season 4 Londo decided to support Sheridan.) Or that he didn't know that Londo was Morden's main contact, and assumed that even if he got rid of Londo personally, he'd just get another Centauri fulfilling the same function (and/or the government going on the offensive against B5).
All this being said... it's remarkable that Londo never got the third degree and a serious questioning about the Shadows' aims.
Re: (I)
No, lamentably - I really need to get around to seeing it one of these days. For a sci-fi fan (and a British one), it's really inexcusable how much good stuff I must be missing out on. Interesting that the B7 Anna wasn't brainwashed. Hm. I'm talking myself into writing Anna-fic here...
BTW, Morden has always been my candidate for "do not kill the one who is already dead"
Yeah, I think it has to be him as well. The alternative would be Sheridan, I suppose - but we never really see Londo in a position where killing Sheridan's a real possibility, or of what the consequences of that would be.
All this being said... it's remarkable that Londo never got the third degree and a serious questioning about the Shadows' aims.
So it is... I think the only reasonable explanation is that he didn't realise how important Londo was to the Shadows until it was too late to do anything about it, in the same way that Delenn didn't realise how important Morden was. I don't think he should have let Delenn talk him out of trying to think like the Shadows...
Re: (I)
(Also, both JMS and Joss Whedon have acknowledged it as an influence.)
(II)
Which brings up the interesting question of why Sheridan, pre season 4, never made an attempt to get Londo of the station, because I'd say by the end of season 2 at the latest it was obvious that Londo and the Shadows had a connection. Granted, before Babylon 5's secession from Earth, Londo has diplomatic immunity, but afterwards, as Bester cynically but not inaccurately phrases it, B5 isn't a democracy but a military dictatorship, meaning Sheridan has absolute authority until season 5.
I think Delenn was completely wrong, though, when she said that Morden would talk sooner or later if Sheridan kept trying. Wouldn't the Shadows just get him out if he seemed about to talk? But I doubt he would have talked anyway, since he's not their servant. He's their associate. He believes completely in what he's doing, and he isn't about to ruin things for himself.
Ah, but I don't think Delenn sees it that way. (Or Kosh, for that matter.) From her pov, the Shadows are evil and destructive, and not able to command someone's loyalty or bravery. So she assumes that a) Morden is a minion, and b) he's going to spill after enough pressure. Remember that Delenn is disturbed when Sheridan says he's trying the situation from the Shadows' pov in late season 3?
As for whether or not Morden would have talked: if Sheridan had used actual torture, presumably he would have because Morden is still human. If it had been "solely" prison and verbal intimidation? No.
And the rest of the Minbari aren't much better - one of them says that the war can't be stopped because it's taken on a life of its own, which is a handy way of making it everyone's war but no-one's fault.
Londo is prone to saying "I have no choice" re: the Narn/Centauri war as well, but in his case, not only does Vir point out that it isn't true but Londo himself comes to realize later on it wasn't, and in any event the show never gives us reason to assume we're supposed to believe he doesn't. Which is one reason why I think B5 handles the Narn/Centauri storyline more realistically than the Human/Minbari backstory.
Re: (II)
Yeah, I think that's it - it doesn't even occur to her that Morden's working with the Shadows knowingly and willingly. Maybe that changes after she loses faith in the Vorlons and realises what the people she's been serving are capable of, although I think she'd still have some trouble adjusting to the idea that you might work for the First Ones without worshipping them.
About Sheridan trying to get rid of Londo: yeah, that is puzzling. I suppose Londo could have done just as much damage anywhere else, but surely it would have reduced the risk to the station and all the lives Sheridan's responsible for if he was elsewhere. And that's even without the issue of trying to fight the Shadows with Londo so close. I suppose he could be worried about drawing too much of their attention, but beyond this episode he doesn't seem too bothered about that either.
Londo is prone to saying "I have no choice" re: the Narn/Centauri war as well, but in his case, not only does Vir point out that it isn't true but Londo himself comes to realize later on it wasn't, and in any event the show never gives us reason to assume we're supposed to believe he doesn't.
Yeah. The Delenn apologetics in In the Beginning were just disturbing as well as implausible - so if you're sorry after giving an order, then it's no longer your fault when that order's carried out? Plus the whole idea that the war could have a life of its own. Even if she couldn't have stopped it, which I don't believe, she could have done a lot more to try than quietly angsting over whether Dukhat would have approved.
Which is one reason why I think B5 handles the Narn/Centauri storyline more realistically than the Human/Minbari backstory.
For all the collective faults that Londo and G'Kar have, at least they don't try pretending their war never happened. I think Delenn wants forgiveness as much as Londo does, but she's willing to accept things that would be a consequence of forgiveness in place of that forgiveness itself - so if Sheridan loves her, then it doesn't matter if she never quite got around to telling him what she'd done. It does seem that canon exonerates her for it, though, and that bothers me. We only ever really get this one episode where she talks about it, which doesn't seem right.
I wonder if Delenn ever made the connection between the Vorlons destroying entire worlds because there's something bad and what the Minbari were doing? I'm convinced that was Vorlon-influenced behaviour (not that it should absolve the Minbari of any responsibility), and it can't have been easy to see someone else doing exactly what you once ordered yourself - even the Centauri don't want to completely wipe out the Narn.
Re: (II)
I think Delenn wants forgiveness as much as Londo does, but she's willing to accept things that would be a consequence of forgiveness in place of that forgiveness itself - so if Sheridan loves her, then it doesn't matter if she never quite got around to telling him what she'd done. It does seem that canon exonerates her for it, though, and that bothers me. We only ever really get this one episode where she talks about it, which doesn't seem right.
It's remarkable though that this episode which during the original broadcast was the first time the viewers learned of Delenn's guilt came rather late in the show, so it's not like JMS established it early on and then glossed it over. Still, I suppose Sheridan and Delenn are supposed to be the succesful, destiny-mastering couple as opposed to Londo and G'Kar as the tragic, doomed one, hence no more repercussions for Delenn post season 4.
Mind you, Londo has to have a heart attack before accepting the extent of his personal culpability - and he wants G'Kar's affection long before that (No Surrender, No Retreat), so they're not completely different.
I wonder if Delenn ever made the connection between the Vorlons destroying entire worlds because there's something bad and what the Minbari were doing? I'm convinced that was Vorlon-influenced behaviour
Probably. The Minbari were the race most openly influenced by the Vorlons, after all. As for whether Delenn made the connection - that's my personal explanation on why she showed up for the demise of Kosh II when there was absolutely no reason to. It's also interesting that when the Shadows talk to her later on, they do it in her own shape.
Re: (II)
Yeah. I'd have found it easier to accept if she'd really tried and failed, or if she'd actively been prevented from doing anything, but it's out of character for her to be so passive there. (Admittedly, young Delenn in the Atonement flashbacks is a lot less sure of herself, but that's in the presence of Dukhat and the Grey Council - and I don't think she'd have been there in the first place if she acted the same way around everyone. With a few brief moments of exception, I think she's spent pretty much her entire life believing herself to be important chosen for a great purpose, and acting appropriately.)
It's remarkable though that this episode which during the original broadcast was the first time the viewers learned of Delenn's guilt came rather late in the show
I wonder how long JMS had this revelation planned? Her saying that she's spent the last ten years trying to make up for one moment of rage does explain a lot of her behaviour, although arguably we could guess some of her responsibility from knowing very early on that she was on the Grey Council. Which makes me wonder, too - if Sheridan knows by Sleeping in Light that she'd been on the Grey Council, which he says he does, then how close did he get to finding out what she did in the war?
It's also interesting that when the Shadows talk to her later on, they do it in her own shape.
And say "You, of all people" should understand what they've done. Which she promptly forgets about when they go beyond the Rim. That scene needed to be longer, I think -
Re: (II)
True. I don't think JMS had everyone's storylines mapped out to the last detail (and not just because of the obvious necessity to change some stuff because the actors left), but in the case of Delenn I'm inclined to think this particular bit of her backstory was long term. First season Delenn was presented as ambiguous, but second and third season Delenn was shown basically exclusively in a positive light, and so I don't think it was a sudden new idea but rather something that, if Sinclair had remained the leading man, would have come to light somewhat sooner. (To provide a greater parallel between them.)
Which makes me wonder, too - if Sheridan knows by Sleeping in Light that she'd been on the Grey Council, which he says he does, then how close did he get to finding out what she did in the war?
I think if he had ever asked her directly, she would have told him. But he just didn't want to know, and so he asked neither her nor anyone else.
That scene needed to be longer, I think - deborah_judge said a while ago that Delenn wouldn't have been able to send away the Vorlons anywhere near so easily as she sends away the Shadows, and it would have been interesting to see her have to deal with either in more depth.
Yes to the later, but I'm not sure about the former. I think Delenn really meant it when she told Kosh II that she would lose all respect for "you" - meaning not just him, but the Vorlons in general -, and that was what she did. If she needed to be disillusioned about the Vorlons any further, she got it when finding Lyta in that rather blatant allegory of the abused wife scene. Lastly, she already had her big "Who are you?" inquisition. So I think that yes, she would have dismissed the Vorlons. "What do you want?" otoh, was a question she never answered in canon.
Re: (II)
That sounds reasonable, and I think it would have been presented as a far less excusable thing in that situation, too - Sheridan wasn't the one who said he'd spent years still wanting to strangle Minbari with his bare hands, after all.
I think Delenn really meant it when she told Kosh II that she would lose all respect for "you" - meaning not just him, but the Vorlons in general -, and that was what she did.
Yes, most likely. (And your interpretation a while ago of Delenn's losing faith in the Vorlons being one of the reasons she's starving herself to death at the beginning of season 4 seems very likely, too.) But I don't think even she could break away from them and what they stand for that easily, especially given how much the Vorlons have influenced the Minbari for the past thousand years, when her own answer to "Who are you?" is so dependent on Sheridan, and by extension all of his people, accepting her as human.
I would've liked to see her answer "What do you want?" in canon. I suppose a lot of the time she does get what she wants, but when what she wants is something like being the one to end the Shadow war, then it's possible to say that her own motives are irrelevant and it's just something that had to happen. Same with whatever she wanted during the Earth/Minbari war, I suppose.