Or alternatively, the no-work thing could begin right now.

[eye_of_a_cat]

I think it's strange that what the Vorlons did gets played down so much. Manipulating people into worshipping you is not as bad as slaughtering them in huge numbers, but it's bad all the same, and yet it seems that they get away with that completely. In S4, they're blamed for dragging the younger races into a war, but only in the same sense the Shadows did - and on that count I think the Vorlons have a lot more to answer for. Perhaps not from Sheridan, who wasn't really ever going to respond with more than "An angel? Well, huh," after seeing Kosh's 'true' form, but surely from somebody?

Delenn knew more than anybody there what role the Vorlons had been playing for the past few thousand years, although even she looked surprised in The Fall of Night. By this point, the Vorlons had tortured her to prove she was good enough to fight their war, and made it perfectly clear that even before Valen they were creating Minbari religion themselves, and she... accepts that, which is a little odd. But we don't really know what the rest of the Minbari know. Presumably they don't know much - the Grey Council doesn't make the reason for the surrender order widely known, and this would have worse consequences.

I'm puzzling over this, see, because tomorrow's fic I shall be writing to make a seven-hour bus journey more bearable will probably feature Neroon. (My t_m Neroon, who's the same Neroon from Parallel, btw.) Since he was on the Grey Council, and was also involved in arguing over the importance of the Rangers (in To Dream in the City of Sorrows, which counts as canon according to JMS), he must know something about the situation. He doesn't believe humans share Minbari souls, although he's got to know that the triluminary said they do, and that the triluminary was brought by Valen (who he has a great deal of respect for - at least, I think it seems unlike him to use Valen's name to manipulate people on Minbar against Sinclair, unless he believes what he's saying himself) and the Vorlons.

Googling for Neroon fic, while bringing up disappointingly few results (I know I'm not the only person who saw Delenn/Neroon in S4, so why has nobody written it? Why? *wails*), gave me at least two people who thought Neroon's characterisation was off at various points in canon (xenophobia in his S2 and S3 appearances). Which is interesting. I don't think I agree, though, and I'm trying to make my Neroon and his backstory work for all we see of him in canon. Here's hoping, anyway. So:

Neroon fought in the war because it was right, and would gladly have continued fighting until humanity was extinct if the surrender order wasn't given. He wasn't too happy about that order, but went along with it because Branmer had, and because he was very loyal to Branmer once he'd got over the shock of having a Religious-caste convert Shai Alyt. (Somehow I doubt the Warrior caste would have taken that in stride...) He's still not forgiven Delenn for stealing Branmer's body, and for making him lie about it.

On the other hand, he was also ashamed of himself for attacking Sinclair like that, which is why he stopped fighting once Sinclair knocked him down and why he didn't mind apologising at the end of the episode.

He is xenophobic. The Minbari as a people are xenophobic - they're just usually better at hiding it than Neroon is, and Neroon doesn't see the point of hiding it anyway. He thinks off-worlder involvement in anything Minbari will only have bad results, although he's willing to concede that on occasion humans have acted better than he has - that was a genuine apology to Marcus in Grey 17 Is Missing. (In contrast, how many times do you see Delenn say sorry?) Part of the reason he thinks this, possibly, is because he's worked out enough about the Vorlons to know that they've been manipulating the Minbari for centuries, and he does not like the idea of being anyone's puppet. But only part.

He doesn't know Sinclair was Valen. I'm assuming the screams of "What?" would have echoed as far as B5 if he ever had.

He doesn't think much of the Religious caste, and he certainly doesn't think they should have any power over the other castes. He also doesn't think much of his own caste on occasion, and he doesn't like or trust Shakiri.

He's been thinking about all of this for a while, having finally conceded - after reacting to what he'd worked out about the Vorlons the way we saw in All Alone in the Night, blaming all Minbar's problems on outside influences corrupting the purity of the Minbari - that there isn't really any way he can avoid aliens, and the Religious caste, altogether.

He has (and had) quite an eventful personal life; I think my Minbari aren't monogamous, although we'll see where that goes. He has children, too. (Which I'm glad you think works so far, Kako - this really must come up in RP when I get back from holiday, if/when either of us thinks of an opportunity.)

So - since there's not a great deal of canon or fanon to go on in filling in the details of Neroon's life outside the episodes he's in, does that sound fairly in-character?

Comments

[selenak.livejournal.com]

All good points. Regarding Delenn and the Vorlons, I think her big moment of disillusionment came not in The Fall of Night but in The Hour of the Wolf, when Kosh II first refused to talk to her and then, when she pressed the issue, refused to do anything for Sheridan. When she says "I will no longer have any respect for you" and he replies "Respect is irrelevant". Note that in the next episode, Delenn is effectively trying to starve herself to death. Part of it is because she feels guilty over Sheridan, but I think it's also because the Vorlons crashed part of her belief system.

He doesn't know Sinclair was Valen. I'm assuming the screams of "What?" would have echoed as far as B5 if he ever had.

Delenn does say to Lennier in one episode (not sure which one) "You and I know that Valen only knew what Sinclair knew", and the phrasing indicates for me that they are the only Minbari who are aware of the Sinclair/Valen identity.

Neroon and characterisation: agreed. I see it as consisted, too.

Delenn and apologies: Leaving the Anna matter aside, one big thing which comes to mind is her scene with G'Kar in Ship of Tears. I always respected her for telling Sheridan that she was the one who had to talk to G'Kar and tell him that they had known about the Shadows all along, because it was her (and Kosh's) request to keep the knowledge secret when it could have helped the Narn. Still, this is perhaps a different kind of apology, not a "I was wrong, and I'm sorry" apology (as from Neroon to Sinclair and Marcus), but an "I did this for that reason, and I'm sorry I had to do it, but I had to" kind.

[eye-of-a-cat.livejournal.com]

re Hour of the Wolf: I hadn't thought of that, but looking back on it that's a good point. Up until then, she can justify everything they do by knowing it's what has to be done for the cause, and by refusing to do anything for Sheridan she can't see them as even doing that any more.

Come to think of it, maybe that affects what she says to Sheridan about not telling him about Anna - in S3, it's the same kind of apology she gives G'Kar, that 'I know it was bad to do this but it was necessary' variety, and she says it was Kosh as well as her who decided he couldn't know. When he comes back from Z'ha'dum, she says "It's no excuse. I'm sorry." Although by that point he's already forgiven her, which G'Kar couldn't do when she told him about allowing so many Narns to be killed.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Come to think of it, maybe that affects what she says to Sheridan about not telling him about Anna - in S3, it's the same kind of apology she gives G'Kar, that 'I know it was bad to do this but it was necessary' variety, and she says it was Kosh as well as her who decided he couldn't know. When he comes back from Z'ha'dum, she says "It's no excuse. I'm sorry."

Yes, I can very well see her applying what she felt when Kosh II showed the Vorlons' colours to her own situation.

Although by that point he's already forgiven her, which G'Kar couldn't do when she told him about allowing so many Narns to be killed.

But she didn't know that. On G'Kar NOT forgiving her: I saw that both as realistic and part of G'Kar's arc. If the three words Londo has much difficulty with until the climax of "The very long night of Londo Mollari" are "I am sorry", the three words G'Kar can't say to anyone at all until The Fall of Centauri Prime are "I forgive you". If he had said it to Delenn then, the later development wouldn't have been as momentous.

[eye-of-a-cat.livejournal.com]

Sheridan tells her 'I'll never leave you' when he comes back from Z'ha'dum and gives that speech to the angry crowd, so he'd forgiven her to some degree already by then, although he doesn't actually say so until the scene where she apologises. But Sheridan's anger is always direct and immediate and made very clear, and he never seems like he can stay angry for long without doing something drastic about it, if that makes any sense. Sheridan's ideas about forgiveness seem pretty simple - 'if I'm talking to you and working with you, that must mean I forgive you, now let's forget about it'.

I agree with you about G'Kar not forgiving her there. I think, even if Sheridan had found out Delenn started the Earth/Minbari war and forgiven her for it, it wouldn't ever manage to be as powerful as G'Kar forgiving Londo. I can't imagine she was really expecting G'Kar to forgive her there, but I wonder how differently that scene would have played out if she'd already become disillusioned with the Vorlons beforehand. Neroon's better at apologising than she is, but he doesn't really seem to care much about whether his apology's accepted, either - he was fine with the idea of apologising to an unconscious Marcus.